Listing study by Roost hits TechCrunch and…
..brings out a who’s who of online real estate companies. Don’t miss out on the comments!
Tagged: listings RSS
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Dustin
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Dustin
How much value do you get out of listing on Craigslist?
Visits per ad type
One of the websites I mentioned at the Inman presentation a few weeks ago was listing number. One of the most interesting elements of the site is just how trivial it can make tracking ROI of an agents marketing spend… and along those lines, the folks behind Listing Number just published their first set of results for the average number of hits generated by different marketing types.
The dataset is (presumeably) pretty small still, but it is interesting to see just how many hits a craigslist ad generates relative to other marketing options.
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Jeff Bernheisel
I suppose it’s also relative to a site that gets 12 billion hits in a month, which I’m still blown away by… But, this definitely puts it into perspective for everyone.
-Jeff
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Leavenworth real estate - Geordie Romer
ListingNumber does seem to be an interesting tool and I appreciate the idea of putting all ad sources in one place to make tracking easier.
Unfortunately, the assumption that “hits” are everything, might lead an agent astray when it comes to showing ROI.
Obviously, the more important metrics are closed sales or their precursor – showings.
Craigslist has always been good to me when I need to generate hits. I put an ad on Craigslist with a link to a virtual tour and people click on it.
Unfortunately, I haven’t seen reliable results in respect to increased showings or sales. Also, craigslist seems to attract the DYI bargain-hunters, which is great for a few of out lower priced homes, but not the majority of the upper end vacation or luxury homes that I sell.
A sign might not drive traffic to your website, but it certainly will help sell a house and it will build your brand in the “hyper-location” (neighborhood) where you need it.
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Christina Ethridge
Thank you – this looks like it may be an excellent way to track information for my sellers. I’m definitely going to give it a try. Thanks again for sharing this.
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listingnumber.com - Michael Rahmn
“Unfortunately, the assumption that “hits” are everything, might lead an agent astray when it comes to showing ROI.”
Agreed. I don’t think we have enough evidence yet to make the case that craiglist offers a better ROI in the sense of tracking from initial visit all the way through to closing.
“A sign might not drive traffic to your website, but it certainly will help sell a house and it will build your brand in the “hyper-location” (neighborhood) where you need it.”
Good point. Most marketing studies show that people driving around the neighborhood is still in the top 3 ways they found the house they eventually purchased. I certainly wouldn’t advocate dumping the sign because the traffic to the site isn’t as significant as other mediums.
In this case I think the numbers are interesting because they help us get a better grasp of the consumers behavior. For example are folks who see a sign more likely to visit a website for followup information, or is that unnecessary because they’ve already seen the exterior of the home, have a flyer with the facts (presumably your sign box is full
, and thus the only actions likely are: (1) do nothing (not interested) or (2) call their/the agent for a showing.I’m fascinated with putting numbers on the process from start to finish so agents can make better decisions about where to spend their time and money and would be the last to advocate making major shifts based on one set of numbers. That said, get started collecting *some* numbers. Most don’t do any tracking at all (which is why the industry still spends 90% of it’s advertising budget in the newspaper).
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Joseph Bridges
Tracking numbers is extremely important and tracking results will lead agents to focusing on what is working (hopefully). The issue in one of the MLS systems here in Los Angeles has been agents are putting properties that aren’t theirs in craigs list which is of course a direct violation of rules. I think it is a great think to track numbers and look forward to seeing long term results.
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Ed Kohler
I know this sounds obvious, but you wouldn’t know it talking to a lot of real estate brokers: It’s easier to get someone to click from one website to another than to set down a newspaper, go to a computer, and visit a website.
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listingnumber.com - Michael Rahmn
Of course I would argue you can now measure offline as well.
Consumers are going to do one of two things if they see an ad offline that interests them: call or look it up on line.
A basic assumption of listingnumber is that if you give them a direct url to all the data/photos, they will take the path of least resistance and go there – giving you the ability to measure it.
When I was webmaster for a large real estate company, we got an unbelievable number of emails from the public trying (in vein) to find a specific listing on the site from the (little) information in print ads. Lightbulb!
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Jonathan Christopher
I have had more than a little luck using craigslist. I find buyers for my houses frequently and even use it to buy electronics and household items. I love craisglist!
Dustin
It’s such a waste that Craigslist has not started doing something like…
… CribQ’s rental search with their own data.
Dustin
LA Times Examines Local Home Search Options
The results:
- Zillow: 168 homes*
- HomeGain: 142, 48 homes (depending on day)
- ZipRealty: 126 homes
- Yahoo Real Estate: 107 homes
- Realtor.com: 103 homes
- MSN Real Estate: 103 homes
- RE/Max: 91 homes
- Trulia: 77 homes
- Coldwell Banker: 29, 96 (depending on site)
- AOL Real Estate: 49 listings
These numbers are always in flux, but from what I’m seeing I think there are between 90 and 100 MLS listings on the market and around 45 to 50 foreclosure listings.
Finally, it’s kind of a waste to do this kind of research unless you’re willing to do a quality analysis. My experience has been that the sites that do not have direct access to MLS info tend to have more listings that are out-of-date and/or listed with outdated prices.
* It’s worth noting that I’m pretty sure the reporters messed up with their Zillow numbers… When I just did a search that limits the results to 3+ bedrooms in Santa Monica, then there’s a little graphic that says there are 166 listings for sale, but those are for ALL homes for sale and only 64 of the homes match my criteria. The Zillow results should probably have been closer to 64 listings which would put them slightly below Trulia.
Shell Smith and one other person are discussing. -
Linda Slocum - Santa Clarita Realtor
The non-MLS sites do indeed have more out-of-date listings. Many of these originate with manually entered listings on various sites, and when sold, these often don’t get updated. I had a client who wanted to see a home that seemed too low-priced to be for real, and when I finally located what he was looking at online, it turned out that it had been listed and sold years ago.
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Shell Smith
That is a very interesting experiment! Thanks for that idea – and for sharing the results. I agree that non-mls sites require some serious work on the part of the searcher. If they are willing to do that they might find what they are looking for – but why go through the hassle? I usually recommend the site PropertyMaps which has a google maps/mls tool. This one is pretty user friendly too. Thanks again for the input.
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retrove
Hello Dustin,
I also agree. Data intergrity is very difficult… even for the MLS themselves. The issue is trying to update millions of records from all of the individual sources on a daily basis is even more difficult for the listing aggregators, hence the reason why were are addressing the issue from a different angle than all other real estate search sites by directing consumers directly to the listing sources.
The second issue not addressed in the LA times article is that even with the MLS listings it still represents only about 65%-70% of the homes for sale in an area. So based on the search there maybe as much as another 30 – 40 homes for sale that buyers would never find using the aforementioned sources.
Lastly the issue regarding data… as there is more syndication this issue of data integrity will only be compounded.
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Leavenworth Real Estate - Geordie Romer
I wrote about this on my blog a while back with a slightly different take.
http://www.myleavenworth.com/2008/03/leavenworth-fsbo-for-sale-by-owner.html
I think we should admit that no site will ever have ALL the listings. Websites are fine for browsing, but for a serious buyer who wants all the options they should work with a local real estate professional who knows the market.
There are lots of reasons why a home is for sale, but not online. Some of them are good, some are horrible.
Dustin
Jeff Turner announced the latest video project from…
…Real Estate Shows. It’s a tool that automatically turns a Real Estate Shows virtual tour into a video format that can be widely distributed on the internet. Jeff gave me the low-down on this project a little bit ago, and he convinced me that this was not an easy task to do right… But that he felt really good about the technology they were using to convert and compress the video.
I know that some would say that virtual tours aren’t video (they said it today during our roundtable on video), but by simply exporting their shows to video format, the Real Estate Shows team is opening up a ton of new distribution opportunities…
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Missy Caulk
This is very exciting, now we can export to realtor.com on the video feature as well as Flickr and YouTube all with the click of the mouse.
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Dave Bethoney
Congrats to Jeff and team! This sounds like a great feature and one that will surely be welcomed.
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Nick Bastian
Video becomes more popular every day as an excellent way to reach an audience. Congrats to Jeff and his team for always being ahead of the curve..
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Lisa Heindel
Congratulations to Jeff and the RES show team for remaining on the cutting edge and always looking for ways to increase user satisfaction. This remains some of the best money I spend every year.
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Dustin
I’m with everyone else leaving comments that they’re definitely on to something with this release!
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Jim Grapes
This sounds very similar to what you can do with lightroom. Has anyone tried a hands on test??
Dustin
On the hunt for new real estate marketing tools!
The great folks at Inman News have asked me to put together a 15 minute presentation at SF Connect this year… and I’m downright excited about it. The title of my presentation: 50 Technologies To Help You Survive the Downturn.
I’ve got some huge shoes to fill in that both Jamie Glenn of Trulia and Brian Boero of 1000watt have given versions of this presentation at recent Connect Events… and their presentations were top notch.
The Plan?
I’ve been given 15 minutes to talk about 50 technologies… Let’s break down into what that means in terms of the amount of time I have to explain each technology. Fifteen minutes is 900 seconds. Given the fact that I at least have to introduce myself and let my audience know I’m available for speaking gigs, I’ve already blow 30 seconds right there… Combined with the fact that I’ll need at least two 10-second water breaks, I’m down to 850 seconds or 17 seconds per technology! I’m known for speaking fast, but the pressure is really going to be on! 
I Need Your Help!
Real estate agents: Do you have a favorite tool or technology that has become indispensable at making your business operations more efficient? My preference is online tools, but I’ve have to find 50 of them, so I’m honestly not very picky at the moment!
Real estate tech providers: Do you have a tool you think is worthy of being featured at SF Connect? Let me know, but make sure I can “sell” it 17 seconds or less! I make no promises, but again, I’ve got to find 50 tools in less than 50 days, so I’d appreciate any help you can give!
My Bag of Tricks
Here’s an outline of the previous presentation.
Jamie Glenn:
- Listing Sites (12 sites)
- Social Media (9 sites)
- Multimedia (15 sites)
- Communication (7 sites)
- Blogging (9)
Total: 52 sites! Plus, his last slide through in 9 “bonus” resources!
Brian Boero:
- Things that will help you work smarter and cut costs (10 actions)
- Things that let you engage customers and prospects in new ways (8 actions)
- Things that will help you grow your professional network (3 actions)
- Blogs you should read (and watch) (7 actions)
- Market smarter – and cheaper (6 actions)
- New advertising opportunities (5 actions)
- Technologies that help you leverage your knowledge (3 actions)
- Things that shrink space and time (3 actions)
- Technologies that help you meet the neighbors (4 actions)
Total: 49 actions. Although much to his credit, each-and-every “action” included at least one technology tool and many of them included multiple tools!!!
I have both presentations in front of me, and I can tell you that they both did an excellent job of providing a wealth of information in only 15 minutes!
My Presentation
Lucky for me, I still have over a month! Unlucky for me, I just typed out all the notes I’ve taken to date and I have only 33 technologies listed that are appropriate for the title: “50 Technologies To Help You Survive the Downturn.”
Here’s an outline of how I grouped the various tools, concepts, websites so far (but note, I’m positive the final outline will be MUCH different):
- Online Marketing Basics
- Publishing Tools
- CRMs
- Inspiration
- Analytics
- Listing Syndication
- Listing Tools
- Connecting with Consumers
- Connecting with Professionals
- Video Podcasts
- Communications
- Identity Management
However, rather than bias you’all by starting with my list of sites I would include (or listing out the websites from the the previous presentations), I’d LOVE LOVE LOVE to hear some of the tools, techniques and technologies that you think would be worthy of being included in this list!
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Brad Coy
http://highrisehq.com/ and/or http://www.37signals.com/
http://www.picnik.com/ used with flickr
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Dan Green
Bring the Blog (http://www.bringtheblog.com) could be a worthy inclusion. It’s the “Associated Press for Weblogs”, helping real estate and mortgage professionals fill their pages each day with relevant and timely content.
Disclaimer: I am the company founder and principal owner
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Joseph Bridges
Dustin,
That sounds like a great opportunity and I bet you can cover each in 16 seconds if you really had to
Some technologies that my brother and I use on a regular bases for our work:1. Get Response – automatic e-mail follow-up. Not our standard procedure but good.
2. Top Producer – I know you like them and we continue to use them for our CRM software.
3. Website Platforms – We really like two when it comes down to it and we know you have used both (Diverse Solutions & Top Producer)
4. TextMyMLS – This is a great new marketing tool we have been testing with great results. People can text from their phone and get information on their phone. More information at http://www.TextMyMLS.com. The owner is a great guy (Randy) and you can also speak with Christian Stefferud who is the CA rep we deal with and he is at http://mastermymarketing.blogspot.com/.Those are few that we use and thought they might add to some discussion for you and for your work.
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Jon Strum
I think that Retaggr (http://www.retaggr.com) represents the ultimate web 2.0 business card. It could fit into your “Online Marketing Basics”, “Connecting with Consumers” or “Connecting with Professionals” categories.
I just posted a write-up on this new company and why this is a “must have” for real estate agents on my blog at http://www.LARealEstateBlog.com. Instead of repeating myself, I’ll invite you to check it out!
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Steve Jagger - Ubertor
Hi Dustin,
I’m obviously quite biased, but Ubertor would be an excellent addition to your list. I would also suggest Google Adwords and the Flip Video Camera including Vimeo, YouTube and Viddler.
Thanks and I hope all is well.
Steve -
Dustin
thanks everyone for the suggestions! I’ve also been getting a few more on both email and friendfeed! In particular, on FriendFeed, Brad Coy added http://box.net/ http://highrisehq.com/ http://www.picnik.com/ to the mix.
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Dustin
Jon: I just signed up for retaggr yesterday and was impressed with some of their features… However, from a marketing point of view, I think the one thing that is going to limit their growth is that like MyBlogLog, website owners have to activate/install the service for it to be viable… and there isn’t the obvious, quick benefit to website owners that MBL gives. Nonetheless, it is a really interesting service!
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Joseph Bridges
Dustin,
I must be having a few issues as I left a comment twice that didn’t take. Anyway My brother and I really like
http://www.TextMyMLS.com. They are a text to phone service that has tested well for us and others. Great service (Randy the owner) and the CA rep is Christian Stefferud. -
Dustin
Joe: Your comments were eaten by the Akismet monster, but I just released them! So was Brad Coy’s comment (#1)… which takes the sting out of my last comment!
James Shiner
Hey Dustin,
We (ZIPVO) will also be at Inman Connect – wow it’s coming fast!
Just wanted to recommend our site, http://www.zipvo.com, for inclusion in your presentation. We allow agents to enhance, broadcast and share themselves and their listings through videos, PhotoVideos, blogs, news and profiles for free.
- James
Dustin
Thanks James for reaching out! You’re definitely in an interesting space!
Joseph Bridges
Dustin,
Thanks for that. I was sure that I was going crazy with the comment not showing up.
-Joey
Joseph Bridges
Dustin,
Not sure if you had a chance to check out the Interview that you did with my brother and I over at our blog. The post and interview can be found at:
http://internetrealestatesuccess.com/2008/06/04/interview-with-dustin-luther-of-4realz-rcg/
We are also going to be having Mark Landowski of BeatYouThere.com on shortly as well.
We are also looking forward to getting a few more interviews lined up so if anyone has a website, product, etc and is willing to get asked a few questions we can set something up.
Jay Thompson
Software (not sure if that counts)
BlogJet – makes posting to multiple WP blogs easy
SnagIt – the *best* screen shot/image capture tool on the planet.
Paint.net – open source photo editing tool. Very powerful (Gimp is good too)
NVU – open source HTML editor
Just about anything by CoffeeCup (FTP, HTML
Online “tools”
Point2 NLS – syndicate listings to multiple sites with relative ease
Jott
Social networking: You know the standards, Twitter, Twhirl, Flickr, Facebook, LinkedIn, Pownse, etc.
FriendFeed has rapidly become indispensable
The best reputation mgmt tool out there is still Google Alerts
Ben Goheen
Not sure if this is already in your presentation, but Trulia’s Publishers Platform is an amazing way to have the power of their search right on your website.
http://www.trulia.com/publishers/platform/
We’ve set it up on our site under the search tab:
You can also display stats & trends for individual cities:
Dustin
Joseph: I did see the interview… I had every intention to blog about it, but things have been more than a little nuts lately! Thanks again!
Dustin
Jay and Ben: All really good stuff! Thanks! Just as I’d hoped, I’m getting all kinds of great ideas today!
Max C
Maybe furnished 3D floor plans for $10 each?
http://www.metropix.co.uk/mtpix/3d-floor-plans.aspx
Easy to explain in 17 seconds at least
Or a 3D model in Google Earth for $20, e.g.
http://content.metropix.com/p/844684m
andrew
it might be a good idea if you get a pitch from the creators so that you will have a concise pitch – this will take out the guess work for you since you will be up against the clock. 17 seconds is long enough but how will the listeners be able to remember 50.
I cant make it since I will be away, kinda sucks!
Justin LaJoie
Google Docs – So you can get to your documents from anywhere.
http://docs.google.com
Diverse Solutions dsSearchAgent – Mapping MLS IDX Solution that works with any website or blog. Makes your website useful.
http://www.diversesolutions.com/dssearchagent-idx-solution.aspx
Apple iPhone – Stay conneected where ever you are. Just wait for all the 3rd part applications to start rolling in.
http://www.apple.com/iphone
docstoc.com – Free document repository
http://www.docstoc.com
A Toyota Prius – 48 MPG – Save some money so you can stay in business.
http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid
Dustin
All great stuff Justin! I especially like the addition of a Prius!
Linda Slocum - Santa Clarita Realtor
For hardware, the Fujitsu ScanSnap is a must-have. It scans dual-sided documents in a single pass into pdf format, and does it quickly.
SnagIt has already been mentioned here, but be sure to upgrade to the newest version to take advantage of the added features.
Top Producer must be used correctly to be included here, not just as a database system. The automated lead follow-up system works well, and it can be linked to the Diverse Solutions IDX.
Dustin
Thanks so much Linda!
I really like the idea of including great multi-media devices… and the whole CRM issue definitely needs to be addressed. So much to cover!
jaygt
Then there is the single most powerful tool of all…. Wordpress.
Jay Thompson
Huh. Apparently I was still logged into WP.com from this morning’s blogging seminar. Hence the “jaygt” as my name in the comment above.
Ironic in that I was lauding WP….
But annoying that it just keeps you logged in and jams your WP username into any WP.com blog you comment on.
None the less, without WordPress, I’d be starving. Canadian buyers help too, but they really aren’t a “technology tool”.
Joseph Bridges
Dustin,
You can still blog about the interview, we don’t mind
Joey
Brad Coy
Google apps for sure.
I think Tumblr is also a great tool for brokers/agents to use as an inner office microblogging platform or personal blog platform for those who want to keep a blog that’s much more pain free than WP.
I have been doing this for a while, but I think Maxsell is doing a much better job.
magnus
1. snagit (http://www.techsmith.com/screen-capture.asp)
Just brilliant screen capture tool, so easy and yet powerful. If you start using it, you will use it 20 times a day…
(saw that Jay also recommended it)
2. Google Docs
instead of post it notes, scrabble your thoughts in a doc and you will have it when you need it, regardless where you log on
3. Google reader, rocks
4. a hosted Content Mgt Service for your site
5. a ’simple, but straightforward’ YouTube video to introduce yourself on the site
Joseph Ferrara.sellsius
The only tool that lets you track “offline” advertising, the Sellsius Link.
http://www.sellsiusrealestate.com/html/popup_sellsius_link.aspx
(Disclosure: I am the principal)
These are all free (except where indicated):
Grandcentral.com (one telephone number for life)
Skype.com
jott.com (voice to email/text message. Now gets feeds)
propertyshark.com (where available. Makes Z look like a guppy) (not all free)
ereal anlayzer http://tinyurl.com/4fl98r (investor tool)
faststonecapture (THE best screenshot tool)
meebo (online chat)
zamzar.com (online file conversion. love this)
tweetbeep (twitter alerts– set to your market keywords)
meetup.com (F2F social networking via the net. Meet the fleshy avatars and see what a looks like)
HomeGain (Buyer Link & Source4Sellers tools) (not free but works)
GOOG 411 (free 411)
dimdim.com (online conferences. share desktop)
yourli.st (email reminder service)
oovoo (video conferencing)
drop.io (private sharing of files, doc, pics, video. Great)
I’m tired of typing. If you’re stuck for 50 call me, I’ve got lots more.
Dustin
Thanks again everyone! I’m inundated with great ideas and loving it!
Kurtis Holsapple
PlugMyListing.com can cover many of these needs (syndication, listing tools) and more. I am the Director of Technology so any questions you have I can easily answer.
Other tools:
-Mozilla Firefox (IE tab to work with IE pages)
-Mozilla Thunderbird/Lightning Plugin with Google Calendar plugin
-Open Office for office suite
-Google Android
-Google Maps API
-Linux?
Dustin
Thanks Kurtis!
I’m definitely going to dive a bit more into sydication tech for agents over the next few weeks… and I’m positive I’ll reach out to you at that point!
John Rowles
Here’s a radical idea: Use technology to make things more simple (iPod, iPhone, Google), instead of more complex (any RE search tool that requires you to view a tutorial to figure it out).
We build IDX sites that are powered by Google Enterprise search technology. Our visitors can search for real estate the same way we know that at least 60% of them search for everything else — by googling it.
Brian just mentioned us on 1000WattBlog last week:
http://www.1000wattblog.com/2008/06/best-of-my-inbo.html
and you can find out more at :
Elena
Dustin, maybe «How to» videos and guides will be useful too
http://www.instructables.com
http://www.howcast.com/
And Russian “SkilloPedia” for example
http://skillopedia.ru/catalogue.php?id=31
JeffX
RateSpeed Dustin!!
ratespeed.com
ratespeed.com/blog
Dustin
Jeff: Gotcha!
Duke Lane
Okay, since you’re taking input from us those of us hawking stuff(!), let’s go with video slideshows with English voiceover on about 80% of the listings on your site. That’s 80% of ALL of the listings, not just your own (or your broker’s) … and that’s based on an approximate percentage of those that have three or more photos.
The typical website has fewer than 1% of the listings with virtual tours, mainly because so few agents actually do them, and few brokers have more than 5% or 10% of any given market.
Since the videos are completely computer-generated (using existing photos and textual data from MLSes) and the scripting is fully IDX compatible, they can also be used as a virtual tour on the MLS (unbranded) and, because they’re in an actual video format, they can be pushed to YouTube, etc., and boost your website ratings.
And face it: if you have a speaking video virtual tour on almost EVERY listing on your site, don’t you think people are going to come back just for the “cool?”
Here is the first site under development (ignore the fact that they’re saving space by not putting listing photos there): http://psjr3.beta.richweb.com (main website is psjr.com if anyone’s moving to Virginia!).
To see vids on YT, check the channels PruRichmond01 thru -05 (only their listings).
Yatahey! from the “vendor class” …!
Mike Blaney
Dustin:
Joining in with some of the other biased contributors I recommend a company I founded called http://www.inboxfx.com. We provide custom email stationery with live links back to your website and it works from any MLS so you can send branded property listings. Works with a Blackberry or any other handheld devices. Makes your email look professional and it stands out in the inbox.
Mike Blaney
http://www.themarketingguy.wordpress.com
Dustin
Interesting Mike! Thanks for the tip.
Mike Rozell
I saw this post and thought it wouldn’t be fair if I didn’t chime in with an excellent tool that I have been utilizing for the past several months. They offer a Web 2.0 marketing platform for agents and brokers; all in one place. Including: Dedicated Listing Websites, Syndication to Classified Sites, Online flyers, Branded to You. Fully loaded Wordpress blogs for Real Estate, Networking and referral marketing Market research through polls and much much more… http://www.realivent.com I highly recommend Realivent because I completely rebuilt my real estate business using their platform. You can see part of what they did for me at http://www.MyLifestyleRealtor.com
Mike Rozell ~ Renton Realtor
Joseph Bridges
Mike,
Realivent is a great company. We have had great feedback from agents who have used them and they are nice guys as well. I really like their affordability.
–Joey
Dustin
Dustin
4realz Exclusive: Realtor.com unleashes the Zillow killer and you…
…didn’t even notice:
- Introducing: Realtor.com Home Values
Apparently, Realtor.com launched their answer to Zillow recently without much fanfare!
The first thing to note is that the new tool mixes estimates for home values along side listings from the Realtor.com database. This would have been unthinkable just a few years ago, but even with an announcement from NAR, the blog world has been silent. (And I’m told by someone-in-the-know that it has been live with a link from Realtor.com for a few weeks already!)
The part that seems to be missing is accuracy of the listings.
For example, the VERY first comparable I tried shows a home value estimate that is clearly way off base… The home at 26227 Adamor Road in Calabasas, CA which recently sold for $575K is listed on Realtor.com with an estimated value of $925,399 and Zillow with a zestimate of $564,000.
OUCH! If I was a REALTOR trying to sell a home on Adamor Road, I sure would be pissed if REALTOR.com was estimating homes were selling in the million dollar range, but actual sales were closer to the $600K range! A “beta” label only goes so far!
The second example I tried (by simply typing in Seattle, WA and then zooming in randomly until I could see a listing) was the home at 7352 26th Ave in Seattle, WA showed a recently sold price of $880K, the Realtor.com home value is $690,000, while the zestimate is $900,500.
For the third example, I decided to head further east to Chicago (no real reason other than NAR is located in that area). I randomly landed at 1729 N Melvina Ave in Chicago, IL which recently sold for $225K. the Realtor.com home value is $218,183, while the zestimate is $247K.
Results:
- 26227 Adamor Road. Realtor.com: +61%, Zillow: -2%
- 7352 26th Ave. Realtor.com: -22%, Zillow: +2%
- 1729 N Melvina Ave. Realtor.com: -3%, Zillow: +10%
Two horrible estimates and one decent estimate out of three tries. It makes sense that the realtor.com team has not made a PR push around this feature yet!
On a related note: Things get even more interesting when you think that NAR took on a similar project (was called “Gateway”, now called “Real Estate Channel”) to aggregate home information across the country. These types of projects are not cheap… so why create duplicate efforts?
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Chris Shouse
Dustin, this does not surprise me at all. I had a seller once use Zillow to tell me how much he wanted to list his home for. When I refused he went on to another salesperson. His home just sold. It had been on the market for a year and a half:) The other salesperson advertised in the paper every week and I am sure most of what commission he got went to that budget. Oh btw the house sold for juast under what I wanted to list it for and the difference was 75K.
Chris -
Irina Netchaev
Dustin, interesting… I didn’t notice the value estimator and I was just playing with Realtor.com. All we need is another untested value tool. Ouch is right! Now everyone listen up, let’s leave the home value analysis to the professionals!
Dustin
Chris: It’s an interesting observation you made… and I can’t say I’m surprised. Compared to a few years ago when buyers were a dime a dozen and everyone wanted sellers, nowadays sellers with unrealistic expectations are way too common… and well qualified buyers are in high demand!
Dustin
Irina: I think it will be really interesting to see how this product plays out. You can assume that 1000s of engineering hours and countless executive conversations went into this product, so at some point, the realtor.com team is likely to try to make a splash with it… accurate valuations or not.
Jim Duncan
RE: The Gateway/Channel/Thing – It is not intended (nor can it be due to the Realtor.com/NAR contract) to be a public-facing site – it’s purely for the Realtors’ use.
And – RDC has a lot of work yet to do on their valuations. One would hope they’d try to do it right the first time …
Dustin
Jim: You’re totally right that the Gateway project was not meant to be public facing (although it does have a potential audience of over 1M realtors… so it’s not exactly a private site either!). Nonetheless, you can imagine that a lot of the work that went into aggregating parcel information, building the mapping technology, organizing the (sizeable) contracts with vendors… and all of this work (and costs) could have been shared between Move and NAR if the will was there.
John Lockwood
I wouldn’t use Zillow as the gold standard for accuracy here. One of my first encounters with it was when it picked a 3 bedroom 2 bath 1600 square foot single family home as a comp for a 2 bedroom 1 bath 800 square foot condo, and priced the condo accordingly. Later trials didn’t fare much better.
What galls me is that you don’t need thousands of engineering hours, at least not for the algorithm. It’s not hard like an operating system or a search engine — it’s really just extremely simple application level coding once you specify it correctly.
Danilo Bogdanovic
We already have to argue with buyers and sellers about property values thanks to Zillow and other AVMs. Now we have to argue even more thanks to Realtor.com?
Why does the very organization that is supposed to further our best interests that we pay dues to as Realtors create something that even further impedes our ability to do our jobs?
Mike Hale
It has an “Alpha” tag, not even Beta.. Maybe they’ll only be off by 15% once they reach Beta!
Drew Meyers from Zillow
John-
Comps on zillow are an output, not an input to Zestimate values — so, the fact that an inaccurate comp is listed on the comps page is not skewing your zestimate. More details here.
BawldGuy Talking
The underlying lesson for all of us, possibly, is Realtor.com not being able to generate at least a semi-reliable number. Think from a big picture lens. If they can’t do something so fundamental to the business, what else aren’t they doing?
Yet another institutional embarrassment. Geez
John Lockwood
Drew,
Well, fair enough, the comp was an output. The problem is, the numbers for the Zestimate for that condo were dead wrong, too. Whether the given comp displayed was an input to the Zestimate begs two questions: 1) whether a seller (or other interested party) should be shown comps that aren’t comps in a context when running comps is clearly their intent, and 2) if the comp that wasn’t a comp wasn’t used, what mechanism did Zillow use to come up with such a broken value?
I don’t really see more than a hair’s breadth between whether the algorithm used the broken comps to come up with the broken value, or whether it found the broken value first then displayed a broken comp to support it. Either way it was completely wrong on a set of comps that a human being could have gotten right trivially.
John Lockwood
Good point, Jeff. My point is not to defend NAR or Realtor.com (though I do think most of the RE.net does a better job of bashing them than providing alternatives).
My point is simply that in our haste to bash NAR* we shouldn’t neglect to swing our arms at other AVMs that need to be bashed, much as we might like Drew Meyers personally.
————————
*because if we weren’t Realtors(r) we’d be bashing Realtors(r), but since we are, NAR is all we have left.
Dustin
John (in reference to comment #8):
A while back Robbie attempted to do a very similar task to what you’re saying to get at compatible values of homes… and actually published it on my wife’s home search site. As you would expect, the estimates are close much of the time, but spectacularly off at other times.
John Lockwood
I can imagine.
Part of the problem is that the actual sold values you would use to test the comps are naturally distributed, while even if they’re done correctly, the comps are always an average. So if you run the comps on a given home and come up with an average, any given data point is going to be where it is, and may vary considerably. The average adult male may still be 5′10″ (or whatever it is these days) — but any given basketball star / jockey are going to throw the whole thing to hell.
My problem with the case that I cited was that there were several really good comparables in the same subdivision that would have given the correct answer, and to use the metaphor above, the wrong answer was something like fifteen feet seven inches. It just didn’t make any sense. 6′4″ instead of 5′ 10″, ok, maybe, but not fifteen feet seven.
Paul Francis, CRS
None of the attempts to value homes online are anything new. The real value is attempting to determine if these methods are just good for hits (charge more for advertising) or generating leads and how much they are worth selling.
I’ve never seen two homes exactly the same, with the exact same features on the exact same piece of land. Online valuations are dangerous — just ask the various lenders that relied on these during the boom where speed was more of a concern then accuracy as they rubber stamped loans.
Let’s not even get into what creative minds can come up with…
Hmmm… Mr and Mrs Potential Buyer, this well known service says my home is worth $925,399 but I’ll sell it to you for $575,000… Sign here.
Bill Lublin
Dustin – Great comparison, but I think all of the AVMs are terrible. If an experienced real estate broker can be off doing a drive by Broker Price Opinion, then how can we pander to the public’s desire for a quick fix and support an inaccurate estimate of their largest asset?
Drew Meyers from Zillow
John-
If you provide me the address of the condo you referenced, we can look into the comps issue for you. If you want to e-mail it to me – it’s Drewm at zillow dot com
retrove
I think another important note is the value of a home and what a home will sell for is usually two different numbers… especially in a market like today.
Dustin
Bill,
I agree that there is a bit of pandering going on… but that doesn’t take away from the fact that the demand is certainly there. If realtors don’t provide the service in an online anonymous fashion, then consumers will obviously seek it out elsewhere.
Kevin Tomlinson
I’m in agreement with comment #24 (even tho it’s a pingback)
Does anyone really care about REaltor.com? It’s so not relevant anymore—and I helped pay for that cr*p.
John Rowles
Instead of whining about the estimates, use them to your advantage, accurate or not.
No one expects to pay exactly what the Blue Book says a used car is worth. Its up to you to show buyers and sellers that their mileage may vary.
On our IDX sites, we use the Zillow API to show Zestimates and when Agents complain about a bad Zestimate we ask them why they think its off.
The answers range from bad comps as cited above to something like “Well, Zillow doesn’t know this place was remodeled with solid gold bathroom fixtures and their stupid software didn’t bother to ask. Those bastards!”
The remedy is simple: We tell agents to address the disparity in the property description on our Web site. Pretending its not there on the page isn’t going to make it go away or prevent users from seeing it, so just say, “The asking is $40k over the Zestimate b/c Zillow doesn’t know about the remodel with solid gold bathroom fixtures.”
Now the buyer knows that Zillow can be wrong AND you are DEMONSTRATING the value a real estate agent can bring by providing clarity.
Matthew Ferrara
Hi Dustin:
Just a thought: Instead of just copying everyone else, maybe REALTOR.COM (and by extension, NAR) could make some decisions based upon market realities. And the reality is that Zillow (and other similar tools) are really inaccurate because the “conditions” on the ground are always so fluid that “estimates” based upon “market data” which is always stale because of “time” are really bad education for consumers. REALTORS should know better. Many consumers buy homes “regardless” of their estimated market comparable – and many sellers are able to sell for higher (or can’t sell nearly the same as a computerized estimate) because of all sorts of NON estimated items – like poorly performing schools, local tax changes, crime, etc – NONE of which can be accurately reflected by a computer. Only by REALTORS who keep up with “the full marketplace” of issues that impact homes.
How silly. Once again.,..
- Matthew Ferrara
http://www.matthewferrara.com
Colorado Real Estate Listings
Unfortunately all computer generated valuation models still have to work out all the kinks. I from the tests I ran on Realtor.com, they are way behind Zillow on valuations. It should be interesting to see how quickly they catch up or if they implement some other features.
Dustin
“Realtor.com isn’t bringing any game. They…
… need to come up with something better than four free photos, and quick.“ – Blanche Evans
Ouch.
(h/t Spencer)
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Reno Real Estate
I felt the same way when I started using their site. But good thing our broker set our whole company up with their featured listings for a price that at first I couldn’t believe($40/mo!)
So, the answer to this problem could be talk to the other agents in your office and if they are interested in getting featured you can get a office discount. Much much cheaper.
Christian Sterner 12:06 pm on August 22, 2008 Permalink |
Hah…Boer stole the show in the comments. Hilarious!
Drew Izzo 12:26 pm on August 22, 2008 Permalink |
Thanks for the post Dustin. It’s definitely the beginning of an interesting and ongoing conversation.
Dustin 12:40 pm on August 22, 2008 Permalink |
No doubt about it Drew… You guys are definitely doing something interesting by tapping directly into the MLS system.